Hosea 9:6 is a prediction of Muhammad
Hosea: A hidden prophecy of Muhammad (and his war against a Jewish tribe)
In 625 CE, Muhammad was visiting the Jewish tribe Banu Nadir, asking them to honor the peace treaty (by contributing to a blood-money he had to pay).
They pretended to accept, and offered him a seat near a wall, then decided that the opportunity was too good to miss.. and thought that a falling rock from above the wall will solve their "Muhammad problem" forever.
Muhammad, sitting with 2 or three friends, waiting for the money, was secretly informed of the plot. He suddenly stood up and left without a word. The assasination plot failed.
He went home and sent a message to Banu Nadir, expelling the whole tribe. They accepted, at first, and started to prepare for exile, but some crypto-pagans (Munafiqun/Hypocrites) secretly encouraged them and promised military aid. Banu Nadir decided to go to war with the Muslims. A siege started.. no help came. Muhammad's army was outside Banu Nadir's forts, while the Jewish tribe using the strategic advantage of palm trees (they were a rich agricultural tribe) to shoot arrows.
Muhammad began to burn the trees, which was the last straw (after a 1 or 2 weeks siege), and Banu Nadir surrendered.
They were ordered to evacuate, carrying whatever their animals can carry (except weapons). They did, even taking the wooden doors with them!
Some of them went to Syria, while others went to the Jewish tribe of Khaybar, preparing for a second round. (a few years later they lost this one too)
The Qur'anic Sura #59 talks about the event. The name of the chapter is Al Hashr, i.e. the gathering or the banishment.
In the 8th century BCE, the Book attributed to Hosea the prophet was attacking the Jewish tribes of Northern Israel. Mocking their apostasy, and their alliance with the infidels/pagans.. predicting their downfall, as usual.
New English Translation (NET):
Hosea 8:10
"Even though they have hired lovers among the nations,
I will soon gather them together for judgment.
Then they will begin to waste away
under the oppression of a mighty king"
8:14
"Israel has forgotten his Maker and built royal palaces,
and Judah has built many fortified cities.
But I will send fire on their cities;
it will consume their royal citadels"
9:6-8
"Look! Even if they flee from the destruction,
Egypt will take hold of them,
and Memphis will bury them.
The weeds will inherit the silver they treasure
thorn bushes will occupy their homes.
The time of judgment is about to arrive!
The time of retribution is imminent!
Let Israel know!
The prophet is considered a fool
the inspired man is viewed as a madman
because of the multitude of your sins and your intense animosity.
The prophet is a watchman over Ephraim on behalf of God,
[NET annotation: The syntax of this line is difficult, and the text is questionable]
yet traps are laid for him along all of his paths;
animosity rages against him in the land of his God"
The chapter is talking about the Assyrian invasion of Israel.
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary, Hosea 8:9 -10
"Going to Assyria is defined still further in the third clause as suing for loves, i.e., for the favour and help of the Assyrians...
Ephraim tries to form unnatural alliances with the nations of the world, that is to say, alliances that are quite incompatible with its vocation"
But Saudi author, Faisal AlKamli, and others, see a second meaning in the text.. a semi-parallel prophecy.
Some of the similarities between the text and what happened to Banu Nadir:
The gathering. The alliances. The fortified cities. The fire. Homes abandoned. Muhammad was called a madman by some of his enemies (Qur'an 15:6). The assasination plot was a "trap laid for him"
[I discovered the text independently, weeks ago, then searched for my interpretation to (surprisingly) find his exact conclusion already published in Arabic 10 years ago!]
Now we come to the language. The verses were difficult to translate, even the Greek LXX had to change some letters to make it coherent.
Reading the English translations conceals the problematic words. To see them you have to read annotated versions.
Hosea 9:6 says
כי-הנה הלכו מ:שד מצרים תקבצ:ם מף תקבר:ם מחמד ל:כספ:ם קמוש יירש:ם חוח ב:אהלי:הם
מִצְרַיִם תְּקַבְּצֵם
Egypt will gather them,
מֹף תְּקַבְּרֵם
Memphis will bury them,
מַחְמַד לְכַסְפָּם
The desirable things of their silver
קִמּוֺשׂ יִירָשֵׁם
Nettles possess them,
חוֺחַ בְּאָהֳלֵיהֶם
Thorn is in their tents.
In Hebrew, the prepositions are attached to the words, which makes reading the text difficult sometimes. You will notice that this Hebrew section uses somewhat poetic 2-word smaller sections. The first line has the word EGYPT then the word Will Gather Them (yes, it's one word in Hebrew. Arabic has the same structure)
The second line: Memphis & Will Bury Them.
The third is the funny one :)
MHMD & For Their Money.
The fourth line: Nettles & Will Inherit Them.
The fifth line: Thorns & In Their Homes.
The 3rd line is very difficult to translate as a separate sentence, so translators tend to combine it with the 4th, ignoring a pesky preposition (the Hebrew letter L, which means: for), and reconstructing the two sentences into a new one.
Why?
The problem they face is that the Hebrew word MHMD is a simple word, means "pleasant, desired or desirable".. but "The desire for your silver" isn't a complete sentence, AND doesn't mesh well with the next sentence.
(See: The Septuagint Text of Hosea Compared with the Massoretic Text, The University of Chicago Press, by Gaylard H. Patterson)
This is why the New Oxford Annotated Bible says:
"Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver. (Meaning of Hebrew uncertain)"
The Jewish Study Bible had a cute solution. They changed the order of the lines, bringing the 3rd line (the pesky one about silver) to the top!
"Behold, they have gone from destruction
[With] the silver they treasure.
Egypt shall hold them fast,
Moph shall receive them in burial.
Weeds are their heirs;
Prickly shrubs occupy their [old] homes"
I like the added "with" :)
When the glove doesn't fit, YOU MAKE IT FIT!
A last point. Remember the original 4th line (the about nettles)? It uses the word Possess/Inherit
Strong's Hebrew Lexicon tells us it is:
"#H3423. A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication, to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin, cast out"
=====
The Pulpit Commentary:
"The LXX; again puzzled by the word maehmad, mistook it for a proper name"
They had to change it to something else. They made it a city's name.
μαχμας το αργυριον αυτων ολεθρος κληρονομησει ακανθαι εν τοις σκηνωμασιν αυτων
So the Septuagint changed the spelling completely!
It became מכמס (Strong #H4363, Mikmac) [A name of a city, literally means "Hidden"]
MHMD --> MKMS (!!)
Septuagint in English, Brenton's edition:
"Therefore, behold, they go forth from the trouble of Egypt, and Memphis shall receive them, and Machmas shall bury them: [as for] their silver, destruction shall inherit it; thorns [shall be] in their tents"
=====
Targum Johnathan added the word House/Bayt for the verse, while there is already a word for the Hebrew MHMD:
"MHMDTA = "something desirable, treasure"
Source: Jastrow's A Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli, and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature, V2, p762
אֲרֵי הָא יִגְלוּן מִן קֳדָם בָּזוֹזִין לְמִצְרַיִם יִתְכַּנְשׁוּן לְמָפֵיס יִתְקַבְּרוּן בֵּית חֶמְדַת כַּסְפְּהוֹן קַרְסוּלִין יִשְׁרוּן בְּהוֹן חֲתוּלִין בְבִרְנְיָתְהוֹן
=====
My version of KJV is annotated (probably Strong's annotations)
"the pleasant places for their silver, nettles shall possess them.
(Emphasis not mine. Obviously the translation added a word, i.e "places" to make an incomprehensible sentence comprehensible) The annotations say:
(the…: or, their silver shall be desired, the nettle, etc.: Heb. the desire)
So translators are aware of the problematic nature of the verse.
=====
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/dobk0z
britam.org/Hosea9Mahomed.html
In 625 CE, Muhammad was visiting the Jewish tribe Banu Nadir, asking them to honor the peace treaty (by contributing to a blood-money he had to pay).
They pretended to accept, and offered him a seat near a wall, then decided that the opportunity was too good to miss.. and thought that a falling rock from above the wall will solve their "Muhammad problem" forever.
Muhammad, sitting with 2 or three friends, waiting for the money, was secretly informed of the plot. He suddenly stood up and left without a word. The assasination plot failed.
He went home and sent a message to Banu Nadir, expelling the whole tribe. They accepted, at first, and started to prepare for exile, but some crypto-pagans (Munafiqun/Hypocrites) secretly encouraged them and promised military aid. Banu Nadir decided to go to war with the Muslims. A siege started.. no help came. Muhammad's army was outside Banu Nadir's forts, while the Jewish tribe using the strategic advantage of palm trees (they were a rich agricultural tribe) to shoot arrows.
Muhammad began to burn the trees, which was the last straw (after a 1 or 2 weeks siege), and Banu Nadir surrendered.
They were ordered to evacuate, carrying whatever their animals can carry (except weapons). They did, even taking the wooden doors with them!
Some of them went to Syria, while others went to the Jewish tribe of Khaybar, preparing for a second round. (a few years later they lost this one too)
The Qur'anic Sura #59 talks about the event. The name of the chapter is Al Hashr, i.e. the gathering or the banishment.
In the 8th century BCE, the Book attributed to Hosea the prophet was attacking the Jewish tribes of Northern Israel. Mocking their apostasy, and their alliance with the infidels/pagans.. predicting their downfall, as usual.
New English Translation (NET):
Hosea 8:10
"Even though they have hired lovers among the nations,
I will soon gather them together for judgment.
Then they will begin to waste away
under the oppression of a mighty king"
8:14
"Israel has forgotten his Maker and built royal palaces,
and Judah has built many fortified cities.
But I will send fire on their cities;
it will consume their royal citadels"
9:6-8
"Look! Even if they flee from the destruction,
Egypt will take hold of them,
and Memphis will bury them.
The weeds will inherit the silver they treasure
thorn bushes will occupy their homes.
The time of judgment is about to arrive!
The time of retribution is imminent!
Let Israel know!
The prophet is considered a fool
the inspired man is viewed as a madman
because of the multitude of your sins and your intense animosity.
The prophet is a watchman over Ephraim on behalf of God,
[NET annotation: The syntax of this line is difficult, and the text is questionable]
yet traps are laid for him along all of his paths;
animosity rages against him in the land of his God"
The chapter is talking about the Assyrian invasion of Israel.
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary, Hosea 8:9 -10
"Going to Assyria is defined still further in the third clause as suing for loves, i.e., for the favour and help of the Assyrians...
Ephraim tries to form unnatural alliances with the nations of the world, that is to say, alliances that are quite incompatible with its vocation"
But Saudi author, Faisal AlKamli, and others, see a second meaning in the text.. a semi-parallel prophecy.
Some of the similarities between the text and what happened to Banu Nadir:
The gathering. The alliances. The fortified cities. The fire. Homes abandoned. Muhammad was called a madman by some of his enemies (Qur'an 15:6). The assasination plot was a "trap laid for him"
[I discovered the text independently, weeks ago, then searched for my interpretation to (surprisingly) find his exact conclusion already published in Arabic 10 years ago!]
Now we come to the language. The verses were difficult to translate, even the Greek LXX had to change some letters to make it coherent.
Reading the English translations conceals the problematic words. To see them you have to read annotated versions.
Hosea 9:6 says
כי-הנה הלכו מ:שד מצרים תקבצ:ם מף תקבר:ם מחמד ל:כספ:ם קמוש יירש:ם חוח ב:אהלי:הם
מִצְרַיִם תְּקַבְּצֵם
Egypt will gather them,
מֹף תְּקַבְּרֵם
Memphis will bury them,
מַחְמַד לְכַסְפָּם
The desirable things of their silver
קִמּוֺשׂ יִירָשֵׁם
Nettles possess them,
חוֺחַ בְּאָהֳלֵיהֶם
Thorn is in their tents.
In Hebrew, the prepositions are attached to the words, which makes reading the text difficult sometimes. You will notice that this Hebrew section uses somewhat poetic 2-word smaller sections. The first line has the word EGYPT then the word Will Gather Them (yes, it's one word in Hebrew. Arabic has the same structure)
The second line: Memphis & Will Bury Them.
The third is the funny one :)
MHMD & For Their Money.
The fourth line: Nettles & Will Inherit Them.
The fifth line: Thorns & In Their Homes.
The 3rd line is very difficult to translate as a separate sentence, so translators tend to combine it with the 4th, ignoring a pesky preposition (the Hebrew letter L, which means: for), and reconstructing the two sentences into a new one.
Why?
The problem they face is that the Hebrew word MHMD is a simple word, means "pleasant, desired or desirable".. but "The desire for your silver" isn't a complete sentence, AND doesn't mesh well with the next sentence.
(See: The Septuagint Text of Hosea Compared with the Massoretic Text, The University of Chicago Press, by Gaylard H. Patterson)
This is why the New Oxford Annotated Bible says:
"Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver. (Meaning of Hebrew uncertain)"
The Jewish Study Bible had a cute solution. They changed the order of the lines, bringing the 3rd line (the pesky one about silver) to the top!
"Behold, they have gone from destruction
[With] the silver they treasure.
Egypt shall hold them fast,
Moph shall receive them in burial.
Weeds are their heirs;
Prickly shrubs occupy their [old] homes"
I like the added "with" :)
When the glove doesn't fit, YOU MAKE IT FIT!
A last point. Remember the original 4th line (the about nettles)? It uses the word Possess/Inherit
Strong's Hebrew Lexicon tells us it is:
"#H3423. A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication, to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin, cast out"
=====
The Pulpit Commentary:
"The LXX; again puzzled by the word maehmad, mistook it for a proper name"
They had to change it to something else. They made it a city's name.
μαχμας το αργυριον αυτων ολεθρος κληρονομησει ακανθαι εν τοις σκηνωμασιν αυτων
So the Septuagint changed the spelling completely!
It became מכמס (Strong #H4363, Mikmac) [A name of a city, literally means "Hidden"]
MHMD --> MKMS (!!)
Septuagint in English, Brenton's edition:
"Therefore, behold, they go forth from the trouble of Egypt, and Memphis shall receive them, and Machmas shall bury them: [as for] their silver, destruction shall inherit it; thorns [shall be] in their tents"
=====
Targum Johnathan added the word House/Bayt for the verse, while there is already a word for the Hebrew MHMD:
"MHMDTA = "something desirable, treasure"
Source: Jastrow's A Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli, and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature, V2, p762
אֲרֵי הָא יִגְלוּן מִן קֳדָם בָּזוֹזִין לְמִצְרַיִם יִתְכַּנְשׁוּן לְמָפֵיס יִתְקַבְּרוּן בֵּית חֶמְדַת כַּסְפְּהוֹן קַרְסוּלִין יִשְׁרוּן בְּהוֹן חֲתוּלִין בְבִרְנְיָתְהוֹן
=====
My version of KJV is annotated (probably Strong's annotations)
"the pleasant places for their silver, nettles shall possess them.
(Emphasis not mine. Obviously the translation added a word, i.e "places" to make an incomprehensible sentence comprehensible) The annotations say:
(the…: or, their silver shall be desired, the nettle, etc.: Heb. the desire)
So translators are aware of the problematic nature of the verse.
=====
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/do8qle
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/dado0d
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/dado0d
britam.org/Hosea9Mahomed.html
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